Korrespondanse med Takis

Dear Mr. Milvang,

 

I understand your point but the main point in the case is who is listening to the word “flag”.

It means that if the Arbiter is present and sees the game then the word flag may be considered as enough for a win on time.

But if the Arbiter is not present then for sure it is not enough, and the procedure should be according to the art. A.4.c.

 

With best regards

Takis Nikolopoulos

 

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 9:42 AM, “otto@milvang.no” <otto@milvang.no> wrote:

 

Dear Takis

 

Thank you for the answer.

For me, its absolute unbelievable that it is possible to win after flag fall, and where the opponent has claimed flag fall.

 

This lead to a few interesting scenarios:

 

  1. Same situation, but black has only a lonely king. He will not claim win on time, he will claim draw. He does not need to stop the clock to claim draw, so it’s draw. If he had more pieces he will lose. (?)
  2. New situation. White is thinking, and think he has something  … white flag falls, black claim flag. White is still thinking for 8 seconds. Then he see mate in one and do the move. He claims win since black has not paused the clock.
  3. Even worse: White is thinking, and think he has something  … white flag falls, black claim flag. Black is happy and tells white that he had mate in one. White plays the move, and claim win since black has not pressed the pause button.

 

And an interesting note. Black can not stop the clocks, they are already stopped. He can only push the pause button.

 

I think the problem is the interpretation of rule 6.8

“A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect.”

I my opinion a valid claim is to say “time”, “flag” etc .

I understand from your answer that the only way to claim flag fall is to stop the clocks (or push the pause button, since the clocks are already stopped.)

 

In my opinion this interpretation of the rules is a result of an attempt to simplify the rules in 2014.

 

Before July 2014 rule A.4.d was

  1. The flag is considered to have fallen when a player has made a valid claim to that effect. The arbiter shall refrain from signalling a flag fall, but he may do so if both flags have fallen.
  2. To claim a win on time, the claimant must stop both clocks and notify the arbiter. For the claim to be successful, the claimant’s flag must remain up and his opponent’s flag down after the clocks have been stopped.
  3. If both flags have fallen as described in (1) and (2), the arbiter shall declare the game drawn.

In this version it’s clear that “flag fall” is different from “claim a win on time”. It’s also clear that after flag fall black must prove that he still has time on his clock, and thus stop it, otherwise the game is drawn.

  1. To claim a win on time, the claimant must stop the chessclock and notify the arbiter. For the claim to be successful, the claimant must have time remaining on his own clock after the chessclock has been stopped. However, the game is drawn if the position is such that the claimant cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves.

 

As far as I remember the new  A.4.c should only be a textual change, to make the rules simpler.

  1. Could be skipped since §6.8 is still valid, and 3) could be skipped because if you not win, its draw.

 

Note that in the old rules neither 6.8 nor A.4.d.1, says that you must stop the clock.

I think that if the meaning is that you must stop the clock, $6.8 or the old A.4.d would be: The flag is considered to have fallen when a player has stopped the clocks to make a valid claim. or similar. Since the rules does not mention clocks, – to say “flag”  must be a valid claim.

 

 

 

Best regards

Otto Milvang

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fra: Takis Nikolopoulos [mailto:takisnik@yahoo.com]
Sendt: onsdag 1. mars 2017 09.26
Til: otto@milvang.no
Emne: Re: Rule question

 

Dear Otto,

 

the position of the Arbiter is very important in your case.

I suppose it is a rapid game played according to A.4.c.

If the Arbiter is present during the specific part of the game and sees the flag fall and sees that the flag felt before the White player puts the Queen on the promotion square and says “check mate” and after the Black player says “flag”, and sees that there is a lot of time on the Black players’ clock, only then your scenario is correct and Black wins.

If the Arbiter is not present and comes to the chessboard after and sees a check mate on the board and a flag fall and Black has not stopped the clock, in my opinion he has to give the win to the White player, as we always give priority to what has happened on the chess board.

In my opinion the Black player has to stop the clock immediately and claim a win on time ( by saying “flag” probably), in order to win the game. This is according to the art. A.4.c.  :  For the claim to be successful, the claimant must have time remaining on his own clock after the chess clock has been stopped.

It means that stopping the clock is necessary. Only then the Arbiter shall give him the win.

 

I have to inform you that I distributed your case to the Councilors of the FIDE Arbiters’ Commission and they all agreed to the above opinion.

 

I agree with you that the law is a little bit unclear and we need to clarify it in the next changes of the Laws of Chess.

 

With best regards

Takis

 

 

On Friday, February 24, 2017 12:31 AM, “otto@milvang.no” <otto@milvang.no> wrote:

 

Dear Mr. Takis

 

A month ago I wrote an article in “Norwegian Chess Magazine“ about rules in blitz competitions (unsupervised). In one of the cases I described a situation where:

  1. White push a pawn to the 8th rank (when it’s promoted to queen, it will be mate)
  2. Flagg fall
  3. Black says “Time”
  4. White insert a queen and say mate

Black has time left and material to mate, so white has lost on time.

 

A few weeks ago I got a letter from Sweden saying that my article was interesting and they wanted to write about this incident in “Swedish chess magazine”, but they said that you must stop the clock BEFORE White mate. They says that the sequence

 

  1. White push a pawn to the 8th rank (when it’s promoted to queen it will be mate)
  2. Flagg fall
  3. Black says “Time”
  4. White insert a queen and say mate
  5. Black stop the clock (or don’t touch the clock)

 

Then its mate

 

  1. White push a pawn to the 8th rank (when it’s promoted to queen it will be mate)
  2. Flagg fall
  3. Black says “Time”
  4. Black stop the clock (actually he push the pause button)
  5. White insert a queen and say mate

 

Then Black has won.

 

They say that §.4.c describe this “To claim a win on time, the claimant must stop the chessclock and notify the arbiter. For the claim to be successful, the claimant must have time remaining on his own clock after the chessclock has been stopped. However, the game is drawn if the position is such that the claimant cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves.” And you must stop the clock before White mates

 

My opinion is that § 6.8: “A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect.” is valid at the moment Black says “Time” or “Flag”, and §A.4.c is a rule saying that Black must prove that he has time left to win, otherwise it’s draw (this is the explanation in Arbiters Manual 2016).

 

I have also argued that stopping the clocks is a little bit odd since they are already stopped at the moment White runs out on time. My opponents have clarified that Black must push the pause button.

 

To my big surprise several IA’s (at least 6) have supported the Swedish interpretation of the laws. I have asked in a Norwegian arbiter forum, where its 50%  on each side.

 

I think we all agree on that the laws is unclear.

I hope you will help us with the correct interpretation of the rules.

 

Best regards

Otto Milvang (IA), Norway

 

 

 

 

 

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